Tesamorelin cycling
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My understanding from the work of Alex Kikel's teachings is Tesamorelin and other GHRH's are such short half life and pulsitile that there is no receptor desensitization effect. GHRP's like Hexarellin because of the superphysiological effects does cause rapid receptor desensitization, and from that research assumptions were made that ipamorellin and other GHRP's would have andesensitization effect on receptors but this is unproven. Anecdotlly Alex Kikel reports his clients see no blunted effect on their IGF-1 levels running at high doses daily for 2 years. In fact he says if you are skipping days you are losing out on the bebifits. Your body was designed to pulse GH daily, not take the weekends off.
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My understanding from the work of Alex Kikel's teachings is Tesamorelin and other GHRH's are such short half life and pulsitile that there is no receptor desensitization effect. GHRP's like Hexarellin because of the superphysiological effects does cause rapid receptor desensitization, and from that research assumptions were made that ipamorellin and other GHRP's would have andesensitization effect on receptors but this is unproven. Anecdotlly Alex Kikel reports his clients see no blunted effect on their IGF-1 levels running at high doses daily for 2 years. In fact he says if you are skipping days you are losing out on the bebifits. Your body was designed to pulse GH daily, not take the weekends off.
@bfuller I think the two key aspects are 1) monitoring, as you said, and 2)doing the work, which means diet and exercise.
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My understanding from the work of Alex Kikel's teachings is Tesamorelin and other GHRH's are such short half life and pulsitile that there is no receptor desensitization effect. GHRP's like Hexarellin because of the superphysiological effects does cause rapid receptor desensitization, and from that research assumptions were made that ipamorellin and other GHRP's would have andesensitization effect on receptors but this is unproven. Anecdotlly Alex Kikel reports his clients see no blunted effect on their IGF-1 levels running at high doses daily for 2 years. In fact he says if you are skipping days you are losing out on the bebifits. Your body was designed to pulse GH daily, not take the weekends off.
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It's been run for more than a year before.
From my understanding, it's only cycled when you do a Tesa/Ipa blend [Tesa+] because it's the Ipamorelin that needs 5 on 2 off, alone Tesa is 2mg 7 days a week.
https://www.peptideprotocolwiki.com/peptides/tesamorelinCurrently I do Tesa+ [2mgTesa/5mgIpa] nightly on weekdays, 2mg Tesa on the weekends.
I'm currently on my second cycle of this, took a month off completely of Ipo but kept the Tesa flowing.I'v had great results [but I'm also running Reta]
I eat whatever I want as long as it stays under 2300 calories and hit my protein goals.
I just had 2 double cheeseburgers and steak fries for lunch [1300calories]. Combined with the egg white omelette for post workout breakfast and a protein shake tonight [4 hours before my Tesa dose, it's supposed to be taken fasted] I will be at 2,093 calories 200g of protein, 93 fat, 103carbs.As EVERYONE would wisely tell you, take this with a grain of salt.
I'm no doctor and don't advise you to follow in my footsteps, just telling you my protocol. -
It's been run for more than a year before.
From my understanding, it's only cycled when you do a Tesa/Ipa blend [Tesa+] because it's the Ipamorelin that needs 5 on 2 off, alone Tesa is 2mg 7 days a week.
https://www.peptideprotocolwiki.com/peptides/tesamorelinCurrently I do Tesa+ [2mgTesa/5mgIpa] nightly on weekdays, 2mg Tesa on the weekends.
I'm currently on my second cycle of this, took a month off completely of Ipo but kept the Tesa flowing.I'v had great results [but I'm also running Reta]
I eat whatever I want as long as it stays under 2300 calories and hit my protein goals.
I just had 2 double cheeseburgers and steak fries for lunch [1300calories]. Combined with the egg white omelette for post workout breakfast and a protein shake tonight [4 hours before my Tesa dose, it's supposed to be taken fasted] I will be at 2,093 calories 200g of protein, 93 fat, 103carbs.As EVERYONE would wisely tell you, take this with a grain of salt.
I'm no doctor and don't advise you to follow in my footsteps, just telling you my protocol.@Stan-Douglas said:
I just had 2 double cheeseburgers and steak fries for lunch [1300calories].I hate you so much right now.
Yes, that is my entire takeaway from your excellent post.
Yeah, well, I’m just here for the research, man. - The Dude
If I haven’t liked your post, no offense. I have exceeded my daily allowance.
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@Stan-Douglas said:
I just had 2 double cheeseburgers and steak fries for lunch [1300calories].I hate you so much right now.
Yes, that is my entire takeaway from your excellent post.
@ResearchCat I'm drooling over the double cheeseburgers.
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@Stan-Douglas said:
I just had 2 double cheeseburgers and steak fries for lunch [1300calories].I hate you so much right now.
Yes, that is my entire takeaway from your excellent post.
I hate you so much right now.
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BeeKind
wrote about an hour ago last edited by
#13@ResearchCat I'm drooling over the double cheeseburgers.
I don't eat like this every day; Salmon & quinoa yesterday, roasted brussels sprouts & cooked beef roast the day before. Breakfast is always the same but dinner will be dependent on how many more calories I have to chase to get close to that 2300 cal/170g of protein.
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One of the reasons for cycling off Tesa isn't due to receptor sensitivity but to prevent antibody buildup which did occur in 50% of patients with recurring 52 week treatment.
Antibodies were mostly non-neutralizing, with no apparent effect on IGF-1 response or efficacy, however there's no long term clinical data on that beyond a year.
So to be on the safe side, I'd cycle off for 30 days until more research is done. I'd also always use Ipamorelin alongside Tesa anyways, so you're going to need to cycle that anyways.
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One of the reasons for cycling off Tesa isn't due to receptor sensitivity but to prevent antibody buildup which did occur in 50% of patients with recurring 52 week treatment.
Antibodies were mostly non-neutralizing, with no apparent effect on IGF-1 response or efficacy, however there's no long term clinical data on that beyond a year.
So to be on the safe side, I'd cycle off for 30 days until more research is done. I'd also always use Ipamorelin alongside Tesa anyways, so you're going to need to cycle that anyways.
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@Neil-McCauley why always use tesa with ipa? Im looking into tesa and would love to understand why the need for both with the research you're doing.
@BeeKind Good question, I wonder how much it can help versus just Tesamorelin. Maybe it can allow to use a lower dose of Tesa, for example instead of 1.5 mg a day use 1.0 mg + 0.2mg Ipa (I just guess the numbers) to get the same IGF1 boost with less Tesa side effects, also a bit cheaper. The trade-off is that you have to make pauses with Ipa.
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@BeeKind Good question, I wonder how much it can help versus just Tesamorelin. Maybe it can allow to use a lower dose of Tesa, for example instead of 1.5 mg a day use 1.0 mg + 0.2mg Ipa (I just guess the numbers) to get the same IGF1 boost with less Tesa side effects, also a bit cheaper. The trade-off is that you have to make pauses with Ipa.
@vpeps @beekind I started with a Tesa/Ipa cycle but stopped the Ipa part after 2 weeks. I didn't like the way I felt (suspect is was mostly water retention) and decided it was either the Tesa or Ipa or both. I stopped the Ipa (and the side effects went away) but have continued the Tesa on the same 5/2 schedule. I feel much better on just the Tesa and decided to extend that cycle to 16 weeks. That has been my experience, but your mileage may vary.
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@vpeps @beekind I started with a Tesa/Ipa cycle but stopped the Ipa part after 2 weeks. I didn't like the way I felt (suspect is was mostly water retention) and decided it was either the Tesa or Ipa or both. I stopped the Ipa (and the side effects went away) but have continued the Tesa on the same 5/2 schedule. I feel much better on just the Tesa and decided to extend that cycle to 16 weeks. That has been my experience, but your mileage may vary.
@coondogesq What results did you achieve, and did they persist after you ended tesa?
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It's been run for more than a year before.
From my understanding, it's only cycled when you do a Tesa/Ipa blend [Tesa+] because it's the Ipamorelin that needs 5 on 2 off, alone Tesa is 2mg 7 days a week.
https://www.peptideprotocolwiki.com/peptides/tesamorelinCurrently I do Tesa+ [2mgTesa/5mgIpa] nightly on weekdays, 2mg Tesa on the weekends.
I'm currently on my second cycle of this, took a month off completely of Ipo but kept the Tesa flowing.I'v had great results [but I'm also running Reta]
I eat whatever I want as long as it stays under 2300 calories and hit my protein goals.
I just had 2 double cheeseburgers and steak fries for lunch [1300calories]. Combined with the egg white omelette for post workout breakfast and a protein shake tonight [4 hours before my Tesa dose, it's supposed to be taken fasted] I will be at 2,093 calories 200g of protein, 93 fat, 103carbs.As EVERYONE would wisely tell you, take this with a grain of salt.
I'm no doctor and don't advise you to follow in my footsteps, just telling you my protocol.It's been run for more than a year before.
From my understanding, it's only cycled when you do a Tesa/Ipa blend [Tesa+] because it's the Ipamorelin that needs 5 on 2 off, alone Tesa is 2mg 7 days a week.
https://www.peptideprotocolwiki.com/peptides/tesamorelinCurrently I do Tesa+ [2mgTesa/5mgIpa] nightly on weekdays, 2mg Tesa on the weekends.
I'm currently on my second cycle of this, took a month off completely of Ipo but kept the Tesa flowing.I'v had great results [but I'm also running Reta]
I eat whatever I want as long as it stays under 2300 calories and hit my protein goals.
I just had 2 double cheeseburgers and steak fries for lunch [1300calories]. Combined with the egg white omelette for post workout breakfast and a protein shake tonight [4 hours before my Tesa dose, it's supposed to be taken fasted] I will be at 2,093 calories 200g of protein, 93 fat, 103carbs.As EVERYONE would wisely tell you, take this with a grain of salt.
I'm no doctor and don't advise you to follow in my footsteps, just telling you my protocol.Ipamorelin needs a full 30 days off cycle in order for full complete receptor reset. Tesa likely (further research needed) needs a full 30 days off as well to help prevent/mitigate antibody build-up.
The whole 5/2 cycle guideline for all GH peptides (including HGH) needs to be thrown out completely. It's based on faulty, anecdotal data and mostly came from the bodybuilding community just using it as a way to save 15% on HGH costs over time.
2 days does nothing to reset receptor sensitivity or prevent antibody build up. You need a full 30 days minimum for that. Not only that, it will lead to less potent peptides over time because peptides do lose potency every day post reconstitution. There is no reason to have a reconstituted GH/HGH peptide sitting around for 2 days, losing potency, going unused.
This is a great read
https://www.realpeptides.co/tolerance-ipamorelin-cycling-research-protocols/
"Pulsatile dosing within cycles (5 days on, 2 days off) delays but does not prevent receptor downregulation, making macro-breaks more effective than micro-breaks"
"Complete receptor recovery requires 28–35 days of washout, supporting the 4–6 week off-period standard in empirical research protocols"
"Tolerance to ipamorelin cycling develops when GHSR-1a receptors in the anterior pituitary undergo ligand-induced downregulation after 8–12 weeks of continuous peptide exposure. Receptor density decreases by 35–50%, reducing GH pulse amplitude even when peptide concentration remains stable. Structured off-periods of 4–6 weeks allow receptor resensitization, restoring baseline response to subsequent cycles"
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@vpeps @beekind I started with a Tesa/Ipa cycle but stopped the Ipa part after 2 weeks. I didn't like the way I felt (suspect is was mostly water retention) and decided it was either the Tesa or Ipa or both. I stopped the Ipa (and the side effects went away) but have continued the Tesa on the same 5/2 schedule. I feel much better on just the Tesa and decided to extend that cycle to 16 weeks. That has been my experience, but your mileage may vary.
@vpeps @beekind I started with a Tesa/Ipa cycle but stopped the Ipa part after 2 weeks. I didn't like the way I felt (suspect is was mostly water retention) and decided it was either the Tesa or Ipa or both. I stopped the Ipa (and the side effects went away) but have continued the Tesa on the same 5/2 schedule. I feel much better on just the Tesa and decided to extend that cycle to 16 weeks. That has been my experience, but your mileage may vary.
It wasn't the Ipamorelin. It was too high of a dosage of both causing the water retention, a side effect of excessive GH levels. Ipamorelin makes Tesa work that much better. Stopping the Ipa just lowered your GH levels enough to reduce the side effects from GH. You'd be better off actually taking less Tesa, because its not only the one moving most of the load here, it's also a lot more expensive (and comparing the two, has more side effects, like antibody build-up, which Ipamorelin doesn't seem to have).
As far as your 5/2 cycle protocol, it's not the most effective way to go about it, see above and my posts in this thread.
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@BeeKind Good question, I wonder how much it can help versus just Tesamorelin. Maybe it can allow to use a lower dose of Tesa, for example instead of 1.5 mg a day use 1.0 mg + 0.2mg Ipa (I just guess the numbers) to get the same IGF1 boost with less Tesa side effects, also a bit cheaper. The trade-off is that you have to make pauses with Ipa.
@BeeKind Good question, I wonder how much it can help versus just Tesamorelin. Maybe it can allow to use a lower dose of Tesa, for example instead of 1.5 mg a day use 1.0 mg + 0.2mg Ipa (I just guess the numbers) to get the same IGF1 boost with less Tesa side effects, also a bit cheaper. The trade-off is that you have to make pauses with Ipa.
Your thinking is correct here regarding using Ipamorelin "to get the same IGF1 boost with less Tesa side effects, also a bit cheaper". You need to make pauses with Tesa too (see my responses above about antibody build-up over time).
But I'm with you, I think the doses most are using with Tesa are exceedingly too high. Everyone's basing it on the clinical research using 2mg, but remember, that was based on a sick cohort of users who also were using outdated, less effective methods who needed that kind of dosing to overcome their obstacles. What were they? Multiple comorbitities including HIV, weren't pinning it around fasted windows, didn't pair it with Ipamorelin, and very likely weren't health conscious fitness people.
I suspect that if you correct the mistakes made in the trials with more advanced protocols and a healthier user base, the dosages needed for a favorable response are much, much lower than the 2mg used. Pairing it with Ipamorelin, I'd start with 500mcg and adjust up from there.
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@vpeps @beekind I started with a Tesa/Ipa cycle but stopped the Ipa part after 2 weeks. I didn't like the way I felt (suspect is was mostly water retention) and decided it was either the Tesa or Ipa or both. I stopped the Ipa (and the side effects went away) but have continued the Tesa on the same 5/2 schedule. I feel much better on just the Tesa and decided to extend that cycle to 16 weeks. That has been my experience, but your mileage may vary.
@coondogesq I have researched CJC/ipa, tesa, and serm, and it’s definitely the tesa that causes swelling and pain. If/when I research it again, I’ll take a lower dose.
I ran the clinical 2mg dose and next time I will run 1mg tesa and maybe 250mcg ipa as there is a lot of recent buzz about that and everybody here seems happy with the results vs other protocols I’ve tried with limited results.
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@neil-mccauley do you think 500mcg tesa/250mcg ipa separately w tesa am ipa PM would be a good starting range?
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I would personally run one at a time to see the difference of each compound separately in different cycles.
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@neil-mccauley do you think 500mcg tesa/250mcg ipa separately w tesa am ipa PM would be a good starting range?
@neil-mccauley do you think 500mcg tesa/250mcg ipa separately w tesa am ipa PM would be a good starting range?
Do them both at same time. Ipamorelin is going to suppress somatostatin tone which will help not only increase the GH pulse from Tesa but also extend the pulse tail, thus resulting in more GH released. Separating them destroys the synergy, and is just more work, more pinning, more supplies, etc.
I'd use a much lower dosage of Ipamorelin to start too. If you have the 10/3 blend, that's going to be 500mcg/150mcg. 150 seems low, but remember receptor saturation point starts at 1mcg/kg, so thats double that amount. If you're pulling them out of separate vials, I'd go 500/100.
Remember, the higher the Ipa dosage the faster/more receptor desensitization will occur (and probably the same can be said about antibody build-up with Tesa). So it really is important to use lower end dosages and use outside methods to help things work synergistically.
This is why I think really being strict about your fasted windows is hugely beneficial (3 hours prior/2 hours after). This will help amplify response and lesson the need for ever increasing dosages. Also, utilizing a 30 day cycle break after 90 days. Exercise is huge, as it lowers fasted insulin/glucose, again, allowing for a more favorable GH response. I think eating a higher protein, less junky carb diet and staying away from all day grazing/snacking and tightening up meal windows with no snacking in between is critical. So is DHEA supplementing if levels are < 300 (improves insulin sensitivity and helps restore GH pulse via several mechanisms).
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@neil-mccauley Appreciate the clarity in these posts.
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