Tesa vs CJC?
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@Stevepep strictly with respect to GHRH secretagogues, they all work on similar pathways. Tesa was researched specifically to combat visceral fat in AIDS patients and that is its prescription use, but that doesn’t mean other GHRH don’t do the same, or similar. It just means a pharma company spent a lot of money researching one particular outcome.
I think Dr. Foreze has a video talking about this wrt Tesa, and I know Josh has one.
I think a big part of why we all love CJC/Ipa is that it does two things: it triggers the GH pulse and also removes the limiter on the pulse so you can get a bigger pulse.
Sermorelin is the ‘safest’ in that it generates the most subtle pulse and also takes muchlonger to see results. Everyone is selling it now(telehelath) bc it is FDA approved.
@ResearchCat makes sense I have done a lot of research on CJC1295 specifically from an aging perspective as it relates to testosterone production. I haven’t researched Tesa mostly because I don’t have abdominal fat anymore. Mostly what I am after now is longevity and general health and being as fit as I can be so it really depends on one’s goals
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@Stevepep as far as I understood the GHRH analogs (CJC/IPA like you mention) are going to pulse GH, telling your liver to produce IGF-1. An increase in IGF-1 production shouldn't have a correlation to testosterone production.
Am I missing something here? Seems to be two different conversations.
@Stevepep as far as I understood the GHRH analogs (CJC/IPA like you mention) are going to pulse GH, telling your liver to produce IGF-1. An increase in IGF-1 production shouldn't have a correlation to testosterone production.
Am I missing something here? Seems to be two different conversations.
They are bigtime correlated. People who use GHRT often see, on average, a 10% increase in testosterone levels, although some see increases much, much higher. Same goes in reverse - those who use TRT often see an increase in that same 10% or so range in IGF-1 numbers.
This is also true of DHEA replacement - it will often move the needle for both IGF-1 and testosterone. All these hormones seem to work in concert and there is overlapping everywhere.
When things go decline, hormonaly speaking, they tend to drop everywhere. When one hormonal level breaks and degrades it tends to drag others down with it.
The good news is that also works in reverse, when you fix one aspect of the hormonal symphony, others tend to get up to speed and repair themselves, at least to some partial degree.
Let's use GH for example. As GH levels and therefore igf-1 levels decline, we see both Increases in SHBG levels and a decline of LH function in the testes. Both of these in turn also contribute to lower testosterone levels.
Increases in igf-1-->lowers SHBG levels back to normal baseline. It also reinvigorates the leydig cells to work again and respond to LH signaling. Bundle those two together and you see increases in testosterone.
Testosterone is partially responsible for the GHRH pulses in the HTPA. So as your Testosterone levels decline in age, so your GH pulses in the pituitary. Take an exogenous drug like testosterone that amplifies GHRH pulses and you see increases in igf-1/GH levels. We know this from studying puberty - the dramatic shift in increasing igf-1 levels are partially androgen driven, not necessarily from any changes in the HTPA elsewhere.
Testosterone also has a positive effect on GH/igf-1 receptor effectivess throughout the body, not just the liver but also all the tissues as well.
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@Stevepep as far as I understood the GHRH analogs (CJC/IPA like you mention) are going to pulse GH, telling your liver to produce IGF-1. An increase in IGF-1 production shouldn't have a correlation to testosterone production.
Am I missing something here? Seems to be two different conversations.
They are bigtime correlated. People who use GHRT often see, on average, a 10% increase in testosterone levels, although some see increases much, much higher. Same goes in reverse - those who use TRT often see an increase in that same 10% or so range in IGF-1 numbers.
This is also true of DHEA replacement - it will often move the needle for both IGF-1 and testosterone. All these hormones seem to work in concert and there is overlapping everywhere.
When things go decline, hormonaly speaking, they tend to drop everywhere. When one hormonal level breaks and degrades it tends to drag others down with it.
The good news is that also works in reverse, when you fix one aspect of the hormonal symphony, others tend to get up to speed and repair themselves, at least to some partial degree.
Let's use GH for example. As GH levels and therefore igf-1 levels decline, we see both Increases in SHBG levels and a decline of LH function in the testes. Both of these in turn also contribute to lower testosterone levels.
Increases in igf-1-->lowers SHBG levels back to normal baseline. It also reinvigorates the leydig cells to work again and respond to LH signaling. Bundle those two together and you see increases in testosterone.
Testosterone is partially responsible for the GHRH pulses in the HTPA. So as your Testosterone levels decline in age, so your GH pulses in the pituitary. Take an exogenous drug like testosterone that amplifies GHRH pulses and you see increases in igf-1/GH levels. We know this from studying puberty - the dramatic shift in increasing igf-1 levels are partially androgen driven, not necessarily from any changes in the HTPA elsewhere.
Testosterone also has a positive effect on GH/igf-1 receptor effectivess throughout the body, not just the liver but also all the tissues as well.
@Neil-McCauley I would also add that the environment created by fasting 1-3 hours before bed and the improvments in sleep and recovery paired with improved lypolisis are a great envirnoment for the male hormones tho improve.
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I've run thesein different ways here what I noticed.
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Tesa Solo 1.8mg Daily Morning dose - initially added water weight that slowly subsided - stregth and muslce to fat ratio on HUME improved at a slow rate - Recovery not noticible sleep scores didn't change Fasting Glucose maintained baslines.
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Tesa Solo 1.8mg Night Dose Morning dose Similar to the Morning dose stregth and trend in HUME Pod - Recovery slightly improved sleep score slightly better Fasting Glucose maintained baslines
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Tesa/ IPA 1.2mg /400mcg - 3 hour fasted before Bed, hands down best at droping viseral fat on the HUME and building muscle at the same time moved the needle the most on the HUME along with significant improvment in sleep scores and noticibly feeling refreshed in the morning - drier look less water retention my favorite overall resutls. and more cost effective than just Tesa. Fasting Glucose maintained baslines
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CJC No Dac/ IPA 350 mcg of each Before bed fasted 3 hours- My best sleep and body battery scores and favorit for sleep and recovery. Good at muscle preservation and still saw drop in viseral fat but not as dramatic as Tesa/IPA trends and served more as muscle preservation vs buiding. I started to see the Dawn effect with this stack 3 months in eventually in my fasting glucose on some days but my GKI was still under 20 becasue my ketones were high in the morning 0.6-0.8 mmol. Post meal glucose and inslulin sensitivity was solid though driving down my keytones and blood sugar to below the elevated fasting blood glucose, indicating the GH pulsing was significant during the night putting me into mild ketosis while the liver dumped cortisol and glucose when I woke up. Anyways I went off cycle and my fating glucose numbers when back to basline withing 2 days. Love this stack for sleep and recovery though.
Overall I was most happy with the results of Tesa/ IPA and how much it moved the needle in body composition while still improving rest and recovery with CJC/IPA close second.
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@Neil-McCauley I would also add that the environment created by fasting 1-3 hours before bed and the improvments in sleep and recovery paired with improved lypolisis are a great envirnoment for the male hormones tho improve.
@Neil-McCauley I would also add that the environment created by fasting 1-3 hours before bed and the improvments in sleep and recovery paired with improved lypolisis are a great envirnoment for the male hormones tho improve.
100%. Things tend to snowball in either direction, both positive and negative.
I am becoming more and more convinced that prior to engaging in TRT for an adult person,that the 2nd step after addressing the normal lifestyle factors of sleep and diet, would be to using a GLP to address weight loss (you will see definite improvements in total androgen load by simply losing weight).
Once that has been undertaken, I would move towards actually doing GHRT and DHEA supplementation first prior to using T. I'd try the GHRH/GHRP secretagogue combo first before going down the HGH route if needed. By simply losing weight/improving lifestyle and boosting GH levels one will see tremendous improvements in T levels.
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You may play with lowering Ipamorelin dose. 0.1 mg is known to saturate the receptor for the most.
@vpeptides said:
You may play with lowering Ipamorelin dose. 0.1 mg is known to saturate the receptor for the most.
If you're a newbie I am leaning towards 2mcg/kg to being the best saturation dosage while not being wasteful/diminishing returns/over saturation of receptors. It's not that much more as it really ends up being around 150mcg for most but I think that little extra seems worth it, at least in my experience.
You definitely don't need those huge 300mcg twice a day dosages unless you're really experienced in this.
Same with Tesa. If you're new to using it, definitely start with the 1mg dose. I prefer the 10mg/3mg blend that has Ipamorelin. It's often added with a minimal cost and it adds a nice multiplier to the Tesa, and gives you that 150mcg dose noted above.
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@Neil-McCauley I would also add that the environment created by fasting 1-3 hours before bed and the improvments in sleep and recovery paired with improved lypolisis are a great envirnoment for the male hormones tho improve.
@bfuller I stop eating around 3:30 PM. I pin around 7:30pm just before bed, sometimes a little later on Friday since I do not work the next day. I agree with you on the sleep, etc. with eating far away from my actual sleep time.
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I've run thesein different ways here what I noticed.
-
Tesa Solo 1.8mg Daily Morning dose - initially added water weight that slowly subsided - stregth and muslce to fat ratio on HUME improved at a slow rate - Recovery not noticible sleep scores didn't change Fasting Glucose maintained baslines.
-
Tesa Solo 1.8mg Night Dose Morning dose Similar to the Morning dose stregth and trend in HUME Pod - Recovery slightly improved sleep score slightly better Fasting Glucose maintained baslines
-
Tesa/ IPA 1.2mg /400mcg - 3 hour fasted before Bed, hands down best at droping viseral fat on the HUME and building muscle at the same time moved the needle the most on the HUME along with significant improvment in sleep scores and noticibly feeling refreshed in the morning - drier look less water retention my favorite overall resutls. and more cost effective than just Tesa. Fasting Glucose maintained baslines
-
CJC No Dac/ IPA 350 mcg of each Before bed fasted 3 hours- My best sleep and body battery scores and favorit for sleep and recovery. Good at muscle preservation and still saw drop in viseral fat but not as dramatic as Tesa/IPA trends and served more as muscle preservation vs buiding. I started to see the Dawn effect with this stack 3 months in eventually in my fasting glucose on some days but my GKI was still under 20 becasue my ketones were high in the morning 0.6-0.8 mmol. Post meal glucose and inslulin sensitivity was solid though driving down my keytones and blood sugar to below the elevated fasting blood glucose, indicating the GH pulsing was significant during the night putting me into mild ketosis while the liver dumped cortisol and glucose when I woke up. Anyways I went off cycle and my fating glucose numbers when back to basline withing 2 days. Love this stack for sleep and recovery though.
Overall I was most happy with the results of Tesa/ IPA and how much it moved the needle in body composition while still improving rest and recovery with CJC/IPA close second.
@bfuller I'm righ there with you on #3 except I am 1mg/300mcg Tes/Ipa.
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@vpeptides said:
You may play with lowering Ipamorelin dose. 0.1 mg is known to saturate the receptor for the most.
If you're a newbie I am leaning towards 2mcg/kg to being the best saturation dosage while not being wasteful/diminishing returns/over saturation of receptors. It's not that much more as it really ends up being around 150mcg for most but I think that little extra seems worth it, at least in my experience.
You definitely don't need those huge 300mcg twice a day dosages unless you're really experienced in this.
Same with Tesa. If you're new to using it, definitely start with the 1mg dose. I prefer the 10mg/3mg blend that has Ipamorelin. It's often added with a minimal cost and it adds a nice multiplier to the Tesa, and gives you that 150mcg dose noted above.
@Neil-McCauley 10mg/3mg is a common mix but it is 0.3mg Ipa for 1.0mg Tesa. I am trying 1.0mg Tesa alone now, but I have a separate Ipa vial which I will introduce later at ~0.2mg. Later I can mix it in myself when I find my levels.
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Correct. Hard to remember sometimes just going off top of my head without being in the lab and looking!
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I am at Tesa 2mg/ / IPA .25mg and have been for months.
The weird thing is my wife did that dose (she was normally at 1.6) the other night and had a bad reaction. She has been on Tesa/Ipa for months with no problems.
The reaction was weird, all bumps where she had been taking the Tesa before and raised heart rate. -
You may play with lowering Ipamorelin dose. 0.1 mg is known to saturate the receptor for the most.
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Right, I get all that, but testosterone and IGF-1 should be separate pathways and separate readings.
What were your IGF-1 results during that timeframe?
@hunt_ak I only did one full panel test about two weeks ago, and I didn't have a single out-of-range result. I can take a look when I get home. I use Rhythm monthly, and they don't measure IGF-1. I am simply stating my before and after results using CJC1295/IPA. The blood doesn't lie. I am off my cycle of CJC/IPA and now on Kisspepin, so I am interested to see what happens. Like I said, I am not alone in seeing increases in SHBG, Free and Total, when using CJC/IPA. I won't mess with Tesa because of the side effects people have had. I might if my IGF-1 was out of range but it wasn't.
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@hunt_ak I only did one full panel test about two weeks ago, and I didn't have a single out-of-range result. I can take a look when I get home. I use Rhythm monthly, and they don't measure IGF-1. I am simply stating my before and after results using CJC1295/IPA. The blood doesn't lie. I am off my cycle of CJC/IPA and now on Kisspepin, so I am interested to see what happens. Like I said, I am not alone in seeing increases in SHBG, Free and Total, when using CJC/IPA. I won't mess with Tesa because of the side effects people have had. I might if my IGF-1 was out of range but it wasn't.
@Stevepep I'm a fan of the CJC/IPA as well. Did you possibly mean 'increases in SHBG' meaning a decrease? Or were you too low and needed more protein binding to the free test?
Great discussion here. The synergistic affects of IGF-1 and test/free test along with the SHBG is interesting to watch.
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@Stevepep I'm a fan of the CJC/IPA as well. Did you possibly mean 'increases in SHBG' meaning a decrease? Or were you too low and needed more protein binding to the free test?
Great discussion here. The synergistic affects of IGF-1 and test/free test along with the SHBG is interesting to watch.
@hunt_ak it was out of range low 3 months ago now it’s in range but on the high side. I work out like an animal so the Rythm AI is saying I need more protein intake and maybe food before i do cardio and possibly longer recovery. Points to sleep as well. My estrogen is high (that’s my only out of range biomarker) which has a similar recommendation. It’s always a work progress but I feel like I am 20 and I am in my 50’s.
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Always a work in progress is for real. I'm behind you in my 40's but am in the best shape of my life and look better than most 20yo's currently. I wish we had access to some of these blood labs but up here in the cold North, they can't service these areas due to lengthy shipping times.
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@hunt_ak I only did one full panel test about two weeks ago, and I didn't have a single out-of-range result. I can take a look when I get home. I use Rhythm monthly, and they don't measure IGF-1. I am simply stating my before and after results using CJC1295/IPA. The blood doesn't lie. I am off my cycle of CJC/IPA and now on Kisspepin, so I am interested to see what happens. Like I said, I am not alone in seeing increases in SHBG, Free and Total, when using CJC/IPA. I won't mess with Tesa because of the side effects people have had. I might if my IGF-1 was out of range but it wasn't.
@Stevepep this is pretty impressive. I have about 29 out or range markers. Fixed several between the last two labs but still have some works in progress.
One of the things nobody tells you when they are selling you these labs is what happens when you get a bunch of red flags and what to do about them. And the clinician notes are kinda worthless.
I like the idea of the Galleri test, but also: Do I really want to know if there is a 95% chance I get one of 13 different kinds of cancer in the next 20 years? (Really think about it.)
And to hunt_ak’s point, I am in better shape now than in decades and in better shape than most people a lot younger than me.
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@hunt_ak it was out of range low 3 months ago now it’s in range but on the high side. I work out like an animal so the Rythm AI is saying I need more protein intake and maybe food before i do cardio and possibly longer recovery. Points to sleep as well. My estrogen is high (that’s my only out of range biomarker) which has a similar recommendation. It’s always a work progress but I feel like I am 20 and I am in my 50’s.
@Stevepep I was advised to take Highly Branched Cyclic Dextrin pre high output cardio and endurance workouts in a consultation with a sports physiologist. I was a little skeptical as I'm not a big fan of drinking carbs, but I gave it a go, loaded 25 -50 grams pre workout and 25 -50 grams post workout (depending on length and durations of the workouts 1 or 2 hours) and I can say it definitely supoorrted higher outputs and better recovery with no weight gain/water retention from adding 50-100 grams of carbs liquid carbs to my diet almost the opposite weight down on the scale but muscles are loaded.
I don't use it on stregth days but having the glycogen where it should be the following day and being recovered is making for better strength days also.
I think you box and run, those would be good days to try it, I'm finding this stratagy a simple way to get the macros that might be missing to support higher output training.
Anyways you may already know about this but thought I would share my experience, when I was told I need more marco intake based on training.
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