A Tale of 2 research subjects - need some input
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So I'm looking for some insight, direction, advice, etc., from more established researchers. I have 2 research subjects. #1 (RS1) is an older (59) male with a compromised GI system, no gallbladder, and an insulted small bowel due to comprehensive radiation therapy. Additionally, RS1 has elevated triglycerides, low HDL, HBP, borderline fasting glucose consistently 99-101, but A1c in range->probably metabolic syndrome given all the classic signs, though never diagnosed. RS1 has OSA and carries about 25# extra deposited centrally. RS1 started Tirz as an experiment, with Dr.'s blessing, to see if calming the GI tract was possible and whether a slower bowel process could help with bile acid diarrhea (BAD). Dosing started as a microdose 1 mg/wk split-dose protocol. RS1 purchased, thanks to Randy's great resource, RUO tirz. RS1 had a rapid response with hunger suppression and early satiety. Weight started to come off, and dosing was increased. GI calmed to what would be a normal population situation. Tirz was synergistic with OSA treatment; metabolic syndrome reversed, HDL rose, triglycerides bottomed out, fasting glucose now consistently in the 72-74 range and waistline disappeared with BF on DEXA at 17% from around 30%. Now at 4mg/wk, results are maintained, and RUO compound is effective given RS1 results.
#2 (RS2) is a young male (27) with hunger control and food noise issues. Carrying probably close to 80# more than they should. Other than weight issues, no health concerns. Exercises with moderate intensity, between weight training and cardio, 3x a week. Weight training is progressive overload, and cardio is zone 2/3 depending. Cholesterol, BP, glucose all WNL. RS2 saw the impact the RUO tirz had on RS1 and was interested in trying to see if they could achieve hunger suppression and control and truly get out of the cycle of obesity with some assistance. RS2 is now up to 10mg a week on standard dose escalation protocol with little to no hunger suppression, food noise ever present. RS2 notes that there was initially some hunger suppression, but it went away. RS2 has some GI sx of heartburn but no other reports of sx.
So here is the dilemma. I am convinced that the RUO compound is efficacious, given RS1's response to it. I know that the respond to the medication isn't the same for everyone, and increasing the dose is the right next step. But RS2 is losing motivation since they haven't felt any effect from the injections, and all reports they have read and examples they have seen show a solid response at 7.5 and above. Given this situation what are some options. Increase the dose only? Add a compound like Maz or Survo? Cagri? Change to a different compound (not interested in reta at this time due to RHR increase)? I'm sure there are lots of thoughts out there, and I appreciate any guidance/opinions you might have.
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With regard to 'experienced' researchers, all I can do is offer my experience and what you might want to try, knowing what I know now. Will have to consider #1 more closely, as the gut issues I have in spades but want to read and study it a bit more. Could be the same answer for both, oddly enough.
For #2, if you can pull off of Tirz and slowly add Cagri, then, Survo, it might be more beneficial. Tolerance is achieved with all these substances but there's something about the GIP (Tirz & Reta) that seems to make them especially powerful and high does difficult to withdraw from. As much as I hated Organic Chemistry, it has helped me a number of times and though you won't find brilliance here with me, I've talked to so may people who described what you do, including me, with some aspects. If I had it to do all over again, I'd do it differently, but too late for that, so I'm trying something that leaves out the GIP.
The Cagri offers 2 pathways, GLP-1 & Amylin. The Survo offers GLP-1 and Glucagon. From numerous people I've spoken with and worked with 40 hours week on Semiglutide (GLP-1), they have better progress at withdrawing and keeping weight off. Cagri and Survo open 3 pathways that do not include GIP and #1 & #2 might show more progress with this mix. Need to eliminate the GIP to give it a fair chance; not all at once, but quickly enough as you begin the Cagri and then Survo. It's a powerful mix. The sad fact is that eventually, your subjects and the rest of us will require more and more to accomplish results. If you can eliminate and keep clean one powerful pathway (GIP), you might have something to fall back on later.
I have to let you extrapolate what I'm saying and see if it makes sense to you. I'm doing this myself, my last 20 pounds and it seems to be working.
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With regard to 'experienced' researchers, all I can do is offer my experience and what you might want to try, knowing what I know now. Will have to consider #1 more closely, as the gut issues I have in spades but want to read and study it a bit more. Could be the same answer for both, oddly enough.
For #2, if you can pull off of Tirz and slowly add Cagri, then, Survo, it might be more beneficial. Tolerance is achieved with all these substances but there's something about the GIP (Tirz & Reta) that seems to make them especially powerful and high does difficult to withdraw from. As much as I hated Organic Chemistry, it has helped me a number of times and though you won't find brilliance here with me, I've talked to so may people who described what you do, including me, with some aspects. If I had it to do all over again, I'd do it differently, but too late for that, so I'm trying something that leaves out the GIP.
The Cagri offers 2 pathways, GLP-1 & Amylin. The Survo offers GLP-1 and Glucagon. From numerous people I've spoken with and worked with 40 hours week on Semiglutide (GLP-1), they have better progress at withdrawing and keeping weight off. Cagri and Survo open 3 pathways that do not include GIP and #1 & #2 might show more progress with this mix. Need to eliminate the GIP to give it a fair chance; not all at once, but quickly enough as you begin the Cagri and then Survo. It's a powerful mix. The sad fact is that eventually, your subjects and the rest of us will require more and more to accomplish results. If you can eliminate and keep clean one powerful pathway (GIP), you might have something to fall back on later.
I have to let you extrapolate what I'm saying and see if it makes sense to you. I'm doing this myself, my last 20 pounds and it seems to be working.
@Eleanor, thanks for the insight. I hadn't considered the influence of GIP when trying to eventually move down or off the compound, and the argument for a future compound that can add GIP makes sense. Much appreciated! Any links or protocol suggestions on moving from tirz to sema? I'll also scour the board, but since I'm a lazy guy at heart, I thought I'd ask. Thanks again - good stuff to think about
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@Eleanor, thanks for the insight. I hadn't considered the influence of GIP when trying to eventually move down or off the compound, and the argument for a future compound that can add GIP makes sense. Much appreciated! Any links or protocol suggestions on moving from tirz to sema? I'll also scour the board, but since I'm a lazy guy at heart, I thought I'd ask. Thanks again - good stuff to think about
@charletonsmith
I'm talking with more and more Tirz and Reta researchers who stall out and have no other alternatives other than to increase the dose fairly substantially, or try a myriad of other supps, etc to break through.Our bodies are made to adjust to such peptides, co-factors, etc. and if all 4 pathways get opened (if Cagri is added) and "burned", it's hard to tell how long one has to wait until they can be used again, if ever, with the same efficiency.
IF I had it to start all over again, I would have started with Semi instead of Tirz. Although not as much weight loss, you have 3 other pathways to use once the stall comes AND the majority of people who've reached goal weight that I've spoken with and held it there were Semi researchers, now completely off, or are microdosing with good success. I just know of too many people on Tirz and/or Reta who're stalling, as I am at this point and want to preserve some exit routes.
The GIP seems to be really active; not that others are not and I can't prove what I'm thinking but after 6 mo. Tirz (added Survo about 3 mos ago), I'm backing off the Tirz and adding Cagri in hopes of saving the GIP. Cagri is GLP-1 + amylin pathway. Since I'm taking Survo, that's GLP-1 + glucagon pathway; keeping in mind that GLP-1 seems to be much easier to back off of than GIP (anecdotal). Saving the Tirz in freezer for much later, hoping I never need it again.
Keep in mind, this is my own research and not suggesting anyone else do it, or that it works but it just appears, even chemically (organic), the GIP is the key to a big lock. My experiment. I hope what I've said above makes sense.
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